Instinct Training: Nurture Vs Nature

Jim Cathcart 00:05 Welcome to the Wisdom Parlor, a thoughtful discussion of important ideas among people who are committed to succeeding in life. This is a gathering of leaders from a variety of industries, and our role here is to help you reach the top 1% of your field of choice. I'm Jim Cathcart. So come with me and let's discover how much more successful you could be. I love Wisdom Parlor. I sincerely do. Wisdom Parlor. You know, the concept is we're all sitting around in the parlor talking about important and fascinating ideas, and I only invite wise people to join me, like the one you're looking at right now on screen, Michael Graham. I'm going to tell you a bit about him in a moment. But I guess if you were looking for a title for today's session, it would have to be Nurture versus Nature. In the field of human development, applied behavioral science, which I've specialized In since the 1970s, the ongoing debate is, is who we are the result of our nature? You know, were we born this way, or is this something that happened because of the experience we went through or the training we got? And the answer is, yes, all of the above. Because the human mind, it's only formed by after age 10. And even then, many parts of it, if not stimulated, will not come online. Now think about that. There are parts of the human mind that if external stimulation is not provided, those parts will not fully develop. Wow. You can go back to World War II, when they took all the children out of England to avoid them getting killed in the bombing. And they sent them out to huge storage facilities, for want of a better word, you know, like an enormous barracks and warehouses filled with kids. And they found the kids in some of those areas were dying at an alarming rate, and they couldn't attribute the death to a particular disease. And then they realized that the kids that were getting regular attention from adults, getting regular nurturing, were surviving and not experiencing that same level of death rate. So human touch, human interaction, stimulus, having something to push against, some kind of a challenge, a problem to solve, is essential to human development, literally including the development of the various functions of your mind. So are we that, you know, it's a good manager born, or does a good manager get trained to be a good manager? And the answer is both. Everybody tends to be naturally suited for some things and not so naturally suited for other things. And the things that we are trained to do, of course, we develop more capacity for. Does that mean I could be, like, a great artist? Maybe. But chances are good, since I have not shown strong inclinations yet in my life to be an artist, that would not be an optimum path for me to consider When I look back over my life when I knew I had found my lane, you know, my home. My right path was when I first got involved in training and development. I was working as a struggling salesman selling life insurance for Investor Diversified Services in Little Rock, Arkansas. 23 years old, 1970 when we would have classes, training classes like sales techniques or interpersonal communication or presentation techniques. I was always the best student among the small group and I was always the best at teaching others who didn't make it to class what we learned that day. So I had a natural affinity for that and a natural enjoyment of it. And as I became more and more trained, I built an entire career out of that. Thank you, Lord. Because my other path was going to be as a professional musician and performer. I wanted to be Elvis or I wanted to be Roy Rogers or some of my TV and movie heroes, right. But I didn't study those fields. And in music I was more interested in performing than being a musician. So even today as a professional musician part time, I'm decent, you know, a few songs, I can do a really excellent job. But overall I'm a competent musician, but I'm a pretty good performer. I can entertain a crowd, I can hold a group. Right. By the way, I want to welcome from Oxnard, California, Pete Slaga Beat. How are you? Speaker B 05:21 Good, Jim, how are you doing? Yes, I can attest you can, you can play the, strum the guitar pretty well and sing. Jim Cathcart 05:27 I appreciate that. You were at the first guitar night at Cathcart house back in 2000, whatever. Like 2006 or something like that. Speaker C 05:36 Something like that, yeah. Jim Cathcart 05:37 Sitting around the living room with guitars, passing them around and singing what everybody seemed to know. Meet my wonderful friend, Mike Graham. Mike, this is Pete. Speaker C 05:48 I Pete, how are you? Jim Cathcart 05:50 Good. Speaker B 05:50 Yourself? Speaker C 05:51 Very good. Nice to meet you. Jim Cathcart 05:52 Mike lives in Westlake Village, California. So he's not. Speaker B 05:55 Okay, close. Jim Cathcart 05:56 Okay, so let me do Mike's introduction. I want to bring up a document here onto my screen and tell the world who they're looking at here today. Let's find this. Here it is. This is. I'm going to be. Just taken highlights out of Mike's resume, so to speak. His bio, his long form bio. His company is called Mindset Matters Consulting and that'll take on more meaning as we go further in this discussion. He is a. I'm going to be reading for a little while now, but skipping around. He's a multi talented individual with over 30 years of professional experience in law enforcement at the leadership level and training criminal investigations, special operations, special weapons and tactics, SWAT threat assessment, crisis management and executive protection, he has excelled in a number of career fields throughout his professional life. In addition to being a police sergeant for 16 years with the Santa Monica Police, he was a sniper. He was an intelligence liaison officer with the U.S. secret Service and FBI. He worked six U.S. presidential and Vice presidential protection details. He instructed snipers and sniper deployment for SWAT operations there. He was a trainer for the Santa Monica Institute teaching public speaking to Santa Monica's 2000 city employees. He's currently employed by Securita Security Services USA which is an executive protection and threat management company. Works the top tier arm protection team at Universal Music Group which represents the top recording artists and labels throughout the world and his responsibilities include site threat assessment, threat management, executive guest and artist protection. We're just getting warmed up. He's got a permit to carry concealed firearm in all 50 states. He's worked guest relations and corporate security at Focus on the family, Dr. James Dobson's organization. In his guest relations duty, he's given over 360 minute public presentations about Focus on the Family. He's a mortgage loan operator originator. He did that during COVID and he received President Circle Honors recognition each quarter in 2021 as a loan originator. Here's something that will blow you away. He's a television and movie and commercial actor, professional model, actor and producer. He began his career in 1984 and did a number of things and quit to pursue a career in law enforcement. Then he returned to acting in 2011 with principal roles in film, TV and commercials. He's been in about 60 new projects as an actor or producer, principal roles in two films nominated for Academy Awards Carne y Arena, a virtual reality installation short film winner and this one I know you've heard on Once Upon a Time in Hollywood Quentin Tarantino movie where he worked opposite Leonardo DiCaprio. You'll see him in the movie and recognize him instantly. He performed a recurring role in the 2016 Emmy Award winning TV series the People versus O.J. simpson working with Cuba Gooding Jr. He's got a degree in sociology, a Bachelor of Science from the university UCLA and an associate degree from a Citrus College in Glendora. It keeps on going. He's an Eagle Scout, a life member of the Boy Scouts of America, an Ironman triathlete. He's got a music scholarship behind him. He played trombone and performed weekly in four ensembles. Two international tours in Finland, Denmark Germany, Sweden, and the Netherlands, and played trombone at the World Series 1981 at Dodger Stadium. Oh, my God. I mean, Michael, this. This just makes my mind ache. How does a person do all those many things at such a high level and retain sanity, for heaven's sakes? Speaker C 10:36 You're very kind. You're very kind. Jim Cathcart 10:38 No, I'm just listing what was written and. And known to be truth. Speaker C 10:44 Thank you. I'm pursuing my business now, Mindset matters. Consulting. So I'm no longer with Universal Music Group. The document that you were reading from was. Was current back at the time when I was working with them and did that for a year and really enjoyed it. I left there to pursue my own consulting and training and teaching. Jim Cathcart 11:02 Well, there's so many directions we could go. You know, I could say, when you first picked up a trombone, could you play it? And the answer would be obviously no. You might have found it easy to learn, but that didn't mean you could play it. You know, it was going to make noise, not music, until you retrained your instincts. Nurture versus nature. You know, all of us have instincts. And my instincts, my survival instincts in a dangerous situation might lead me to right actions. But you, through your law enforcement training and experience, have had to retrain your natural instincts so that you are almost assured of survival, whereas other people would be enormously at risk. Make some. Some observations, if you would, or share some experiences. Just about that simple challenge, going with your instincts versus contradicting and retraining your instincts. This could be from law enforcement or music or acting or whatever you want to focus on. Speaker C 12:07 You know, I think it's. It's important to be intentional in our lives. And that was my big year this year in 2024, when New Year's came. And I thought, what do I want to focus on this year? And really, the word that came to my mind was being intentional. And I've chosen to be intentional this year in my professional life as well as my personal life with my wife, my children, our hopes and dreams, and what we're. What we're pursuing as a family. But anyway, getting back to this whole topic or. Or even law enforcement or the work that I did in tactics, you know, first, I think, like, starting off on trombone, which was an instrument that my father played. So I was introduced to it because my father had played it, and I wanted to be like my dad. You know, I had an interest in it. And like you said, there's a lot of things that you could have done in life, but you didn't and you could have done well, but. But your interest, you found your interest, your interests align in something that you chose to do and pursued and developed. So I really, at some point decided I wanted to be a police officer. And I really enjoyed. I love people, I wanted to serve. I love service, I love training and teaching. Kind of like you mentioned, you were describing, you know, what I enjoy doing and what I'm able to do well, like, like you said, teaching everybody else what they missed, but being intention, you know, so choosing something that you love being interested in, I think is really important. And then surrounding yourself with people who know how to do it that can teach you how to do it. Because obviously there's a lot of things that. Whether it's learning an instrument, whether it's being an ironman triathlete, an endurance athlete who runs lots and lots and lots and miles, bikes lots and lots and miles, swims lots and lots and miles. You know, all of those things I had to train my body to do and train my mind to be strong in and not to give up. In pursuing tactics and having good trainers with me, I learn what's required to do those things, and I learned why it's important to do those things. I think understanding the importance of what you're doing helps it stay health, helps it helps it grow, helps it helps, helps this. The causes, the seeds of knowledge that are being planted to then grow because you understand why they're important. And then I think repetition is probably the most important thing. You know, how many times do you. Do you practice that word? How many times do you practice that lick on the, on the horn or on the guitar? You know, how many times you practice your lines as an actor and then again as a shooter, as a tactician, a tactical officer? You know, we practice our movements to enter buildings safely and tactically and quietly and effectively and efficiently through repetition, repetition, repetition. And I think that's one of the biggest keys because at some point it no longer becomes something I'm learning to do, becomes something I do, I know how to do, and I do. And then. And then it becomes something I think about. And so there's a. In fact, I just, I just thought about it and I don't even have it here. Well, maybe I do have it here with me. There's a progression, steps to learning a new skill that I. This came to mind, but it was. Had to be on my. Having to be on. On my desk at first. This step is. We're unconsciously unskilled. We don't Even know what we don't know. And we're unskilled and it's unconscious. Jim Cathcart 15:19 Unconscious incompetent. Yeah, right. Speaker C 15:22 And then we take a step up. We're consciously unskilled. You know, we're growing, but we're still unskilled. But at least we're conscious about it at some point. We're consciously making the decisions and we're consciously skilled, but it's. It's still. We're working. We're working to be skilled. And then. Jim Cathcart 15:37 And if we don't, it's remain conscious of it, we lose our grip on it. Speaker C 15:42 Right, right. Jim Cathcart 15:43 Because we haven't reached that tipping point yet to turn it into habit. Speaker C 15:47 Right, right. I mean, at some point, we're unconsciously skilled, you know, we're not thinking about it, and we know how to do it. We do it. Jim Cathcart 15:54 That's high. If you have to stop and think about it, you're almost incompetent again. Speaker C 15:58 Right, right. Jim Cathcart 16:00 Okay. Yeah, absolutely. Speaker C 16:03 Absolutely. So, you know, I think that's, you know, I think just the repetition, now that I'm older, you know, I just turned 60, and I'm loving it. And I'm. My body fat is just about the lowest it's been in my life. Not quite, but I'm getting there. I'm getting there again. I'm working out consistently. I did it a half Iron man, you know, set Iron Man, 70.3 a couple months ago. I've got three more. Jim Cathcart 16:27 70.3 miles. Speaker C 16:29 70.3 miles. Yeah, yeah. And then I want to get. I've done the full. The 140.6 miles, and I want to get back into doing those next year. But in my workouts, I'm not. And in my weight, in fact, you know, I re. As we were talking earlier, I ran to the gym. Today I lifted weights, I ran home. But the weights I'm lifting, I'm not lifting heavy weights. I'm lifting lighter weights with multiple repetitions. Jim Cathcart 16:54 Yeah. Speaker C 16:54 And my muscle development has been exponential compared to, you know, what it's been in the past, where I was trying to really muscle through heavy weight a few times. Yeah. That wasn't effective as getting on the treadmill, walking with super light dumbbells. Dumbbells for an hour or two hours, watching a movie and doing 4, 000 curls or 2, 000 curls at. At £12, you know, or whatever it is. And the muscle development has been much, much more. The growth has been much more effective. So repetition in the tactics and the training, repetition in the movements that we did repetition in my skills as a, As a rifleman, as a sniper, as Jim Cathcart 17:36 a, you know, I have just quick interruption. A friend of mine is Stephen Lopez, returned from Iraq. He told him about you and this upcoming podcast and he said, ask him how he pie is a corner. How. Yeah, what. How. What is that? Speaker C 17:54 So that's, you know, you think of a pie or a circle, you know, all the little slivers, all the little pieces. Pieces. And so you can see as you are going to enter a room or as you're outside a room and you've got guns on the room because you're. There's a. You suspect there's a threat or there may be a threat in the room. So you're, you're. You have your guns on the room and you slowly inch you slowly. It's like a little piece of pie. Another piece of pie. Another piece of pie. And it allows you to see deeper and deeper into the room or give you a greater angle without. Without presenting yourself to the threat and getting shot and killed. It's an incremental. And then having some distance from the door gives you a better view than if right next to the door. You know, if you're too close to the door, all you can see is you're just exposing yourself. But if you take a few steps back, you can actually see into the room and actually see a bad guy or see a body part of a bad guy before that person can see you. And then you can either take action or you can retreat. But at least. Jim Cathcart 18:57 Yeah, all of this, of course, comes down to better decision making on one side of it, and it comes down to discipline on the other side. But it begins with awareness. You know, you got to know where you are now and not be okay with where you are now. You know, there's got to be a starting point, some, Some disturbance in the force or some creative discontent that you're not happy with today's level. Like I'm too heavy or too thin. I'm fast, but I'm not strong. I'm strong, but I'm not fast, whatever it happens to be. But there's got to be that moment of self awareness that causes a person to say, this isn't what I want. What should I be working on? Right. What occurred for you did. Were there moments in your path that is descriptive of. Speaker C 19:47 Absolutely. Jim Cathcart 19:48 And it. Speaker C 19:48 I think we're all, we're all moving towards desire. The things that we do want or we're moving away from, like you said, discontent. The things we don't want, you know, and sometimes I know where I'm going because that's where I want to go. And sometimes I'm going this way because that's not where I want to be. And all I know is I don't want to be there. You know, so there's. Yeah, certainly there's been different times. You know, probably my shift to law enforcement was a moving to a place that. A desire, because I love people. I love service. I love the athleticism of. And I don't know any other word to use, but the athleticism of being a street cop. Jim Cathcart 20:30 Yeah. Speaker C 20:30 You're wearing 30 pounds a year. You know, you got to be in shape. You know, you can look at cops and go, he's not in shape. She's not in shape, whatever. But the perfect cop in the perfect situation. And in reality, everybody's wearing £30 of gear. Jim Cathcart 20:44 Yeah. Speaker C 20:44 So just. Just to get out of the car, you know, and then if you go in pursuit, if you walk up the stairs, if you do whatever you do, if you go. Jim Cathcart 20:52 That makes me think of fire fighters. Speaker C 20:54 Yeah. Jim Cathcart 20:54 Holy smoke. What are they wearing? 50-75lbs of gear. Speaker C 20:58 They're wearing a lot of stuff. Jim Cathcart 20:59 Oh, yeah. And they'll like it. Heartbreak Ridge, you know, our. Our hiking trail. And in Gore Hills, one of the hikers in our group, Mike and I, for Pete and the other viewers, we were part of a group called the Heartbreak Hiking Fools. And our signature trail in Agora Hills was a trail like this that went, like three miles of very, very steep uphills. It was called Heartbreak Trail. And one day, one of our members had a heart issue at the top of one of those trails. And the firefighters wore their gear up the same trail and then had a helicopter come in and rescue the guy. No, I don't mind running up that trail, but carrying 30, 50, 100 pounds of gear. Oh, my gosh. Oxygen tanks, things like that. So when I look at law enforcement personnel and first responders, I'm just in awe of the physical capacity of you to do the things that you do. And I know it didn't come easy, nor is it sustained easily. Yeah. So let's broaden this, and let's apply it to. To everybody. Okay. Every one of us has some aspect of our life that we'd like to be different. We want more money. We want better health. We want, you know, less excess weight. We want fewer interpersonal problems, whatever it happens to be. We want more clarity and focus on where we're going. I think it starts with just stopping and realizing, this doesn't feel good. This isn't what I want. And then shopping. In other words, what do I want? Because you were looking at a career in acting, and it was, you know, I guess it was sustaining you, but you weren't taking off like a skyrocket at first, and you decided to go into law enforcement. Well, it wasn't because acting didn't appeal to you anymore. It's because you weren't getting the traction you felt you could get. And law enforcement seemed to hold that for you, you know. And then after a career in law enforcement, you went back into acting at a much higher level and clearly have gotten. Gotten a lot of that traction that you were hoping for in the first place. For me, it was starting out playing clubs and singing and beers, joints and bars and places like that. And then it's interesting, I went to a fortune teller in the 1960s. I had a little sister, Kathy, three years younger than me. And she and her girlfriends were going. We lived in Little Rock, Arkansas. Thirty miles away is Conway, Arkansas. And there was a woman in Conway who the governor, Winthrop Rockefeller, governor of Arkansas at the time, occasionally consulted. And this woman's name was Faye George, last name George. And she was a psychic. And she would, on Saturdays only, take appointments in her home. And so you could book an appointment and go there and spend 20 minutes with her in an office, just sitting there talking. So it was a cool thing to do. It was kind of like going to a fortune teller. And. And my sister said, hey, I've got appointment for three of my girlfriends and me. And one of them dropped out. You want to go? Sure. So the next day I go, you know, that was on a Friday. And we go there, and it's just a nice home in a residential neighborhood, Unpretentious, nothing mystical about it. And we go in and we're told to have a seat in the living room. And Ms. George doesn't know I'm coming. You know, there's been an appointment made for my sister and her three girlfriends, and I'm now one of the girlfriends. So one at a time, we go in to see Ms. George. And I'm, I think, second of the four of us. And when I walk into the room, it's just a folding table and her in a white lab coat to eliminate mysticism. And I sit down from her. She's, I don't know, 65 years old. And when I sit down, she says, what instrument do you play? What makes you think I play an instrument? She said, don't Play with me. What instrument do you play? I said, guitar. She said, you're very good. Thank you. There wasn't any Internet, you know, she didn't check me out in advance. I just walk in the room. She said, what instrument do you play? And she says, you're very good. Okay. She said, you've got a partner and he's trying to control you. Well, I didn't know that. I knew I had a partner, but I didn't know he was trying to control me. It turns out later, yes, he was. He wanted to get me into a legal contract so that my future would pay him because he didn't see much of a future for himself. He wasn't willing to work as hard as I was and he figured I had a lot of potential. So anyway, you know, to shorten this story, she says, you're going to be as famous as Glenn Campbell, who had his own TV show at the time. You're going to be as famous as Glenn Campbell, but not in the same way. Your job is going to change soon and you'll travel a lot in the state of Arkansas and then it'll change again and you'll travel a lot outside the state of Arkansas. Okay, so I go happily on my way. It was fun. That was interesting. Next. Well, what happened over the next few years, and this was not pre programming by her comments was I got active in the JC Junior Chamber of Commerce, went to 280 different towns in Arkansas to JC's meetings. 280 different towns after work, for free on weekends and holiday. Then I got hired by the USJC's national headquarters as the director of training for 356,000 people. And I flew all over the nation giving speeches. Two years later I left them and started my career as a professional speaker and author. And I've traveled all over the world, done 3500 paid engagements. How did she know and, and what made her aware if she was, that I was pretty good at playing and singing? I don't know. But this isn't about mysticism. This is about what we bring to the table and what we cultivate versus what we don't. If I had not committed to all those Free JC's meetings in order to learn the leadership skills and speaking skills and confidence in unfamiliar situations, I would never have had the strength and confidence and awareness to move to the national leadership level and to ultimately have my own career. If you had not, as a young officer been willing to face the rigors and do the, the things necessary to become the kind of officer would be selected for the special weapons or for, you know, all these other roles or residential protection detail. You know that you don't get that because you're a good student. You get that because you're the kind of person who happens to be a good student but has the discipline, the attitude, the humility, the commitment and the courage to step into those roles. So help us understand some of the little things we could do to get us started in a path like that. Knowing that the people listening to this don't necessarily want to run a 140 mile triathlon. They don't want to necessarily be a sniper or special weapons person. They don't necessarily aspire to being a movie star or whatever. They just want to be better. Some of them want to be really better, some of them just better enough that life isn't quite so difficult. You're an executive coach, you know, mindset matters. Consulting kind of says it all. So give us a little of the wisdom that comes from all the miles you've put in. Speaker C 29:13 Okay. Well, the first thing that comes to my mind is start off in a. In a mindset of gratitude in a place where you're going to be grateful for the life that you do have, that you're grateful for the skills that you do have, even if you're not even fully aware of those. But to be in a place where you're open and expansive and able to receive ideas and thoughts about where you want to go next. So be grateful for what you have. Be grateful for what you are, have the ability to do, even if it's a skill set you yet to learn. And then start writing that down. Do I want to do so? So you want to get a direction. So you want to know what, what you want to do. You don't need to know how you're going to do it, but you need to know what you want to do. Jim Cathcart 29:54 That is something I want to pause on. And you're right. If it's not written, it's not real. A friend of mine said I would set a goal, but I don't know how to achieve it yet. And I said, that's the point. If you know how to achieve it, it's not a goal, it's a to do. Goals are things we want, but we have no clue whether we're ever going to be able to do it. And when we write it down, it becomes tangible grounds, real, and we start noticing opportunities to get closer to it. And we notice things that take us further from it. But until it's written down and crystallized and we have a beginning of a commitment to it. And we don't have to be fully committed at first. You know, just show up at the swimming pool, hang your feet off the side in the water. You don't have to jump in yet, but pay attention to the people are swimming and notice the techniques and start in the shallow end, you know, so. Yeah, I mean, spot on there. And by the way, Pete, if you've got a question, feel free to raise your hand or to. To interject. Go ahead, Michael. Guide us along the path. So we've got goals, we've written them down. Speaker C 31:04 Right. And as you know, we don't have just. This is not pre planned and preset where you're just asking questions and I'm giving you the spitball, giving you my thoughts. Jim Cathcart 31:14 Yeah, but it's. But it's spitballing from a base of wisdom as opposed to Nai. Yeah. Speaker C 31:20 Right. It's part of the life that I've lived with, the success that I've had and that I help other people do. So I think if you figure out where you want to go, you know, what you want to do, where you want to go, what direction you want to go, and we've talked about writing it down and make a decision to do it. Like you said, just show up at the pool. You don't have to jump in, you don't have to go swimming yet, but you got to show up, make a decision, make a choice. You mentioned seeing the strokes and the abilities of the people around you. But if it's a brand new area that you think you want to do or that you're excited about doing, find somebody who's doing it and can help teach you and train you, who can give you the skills, who can. Who can give you direction on what to do. Don't be afraid to fail. I don't like the word failure. It's a word, but I love the, the concept of feedback. You know, Thomas Edison, you know, they say you had what, a thousand failure. 10,000 failures or, you know. Jim Cathcart 32:14 Yeah, three or ten, something like that. Some unbelievable number. Successful attempts to create the light bulb. Yeah. Speaker C 32:23 And it was feedback. It wasn't failures. I'm not a failure. I got feedback that. That way doesn't work. This is valuable information. Jim Cathcart 32:30 Yeah. So struck out more often than he hit home runs, yet he's not for his home runs. Yeah, yeah. Speaker B 32:38 I just interject on it. It's. I believe it's a product of our educational system and the way. You know, maybe we were even raised where you make a mistake, you made a mistake, and you're in the fingers wagged at you or whatever. You know, in an education system. Think about it this. You've got like 30 kids in a classroom. You've got, you know, you got this wrong. You got a. You got enough, you failed. Whereas if it were, I don't know, one on one tutor, it's like, okay, let's work through this together, or whatever like that. Or sports, where there's this pressure of success. So if you fail, you get yelled at versus if there is sort of this free flow and you're able to make mistakes, but you've got a path to yourself. Like you said, Mike, like, I want to do this. Hey, that's just part of the process until you get really good at it. And unfortunately, I didn't learn that until I was like in my mid-40s. That it's okay to make mistakes. And you just got to actually, it's. You flip it on your head. You got to make more mistakes. You know, fail faster with the goal of trying to succeed. Jim Cathcart 33:42 Yeah. Don't fail intentionally, but. But attempt more things knowing that failure as a action or a moment is simply situational. Failure as a state of being is attitudinal. You know, I didn't succeed, therefore I am a failure. An unworthy person shouldn't have been born. Shame on me for breathing that air. Could have been used by other people. Right. What a stupid mindset. But it's often proliferated and shared in our society. Whereas failure. Okay, that didn't work. Next. Next. You know, that just like that didn't work yet. Those are two pretty dandy little words yet. Like, we can't do that yet. I don't know how to do that yet. I've never been able to do that yet. You know, well, we blew it. It didn't work. Next. And by the way, Pete, I want to give you a gratitude from the state of Texas. Show us your T shirt. Speaker C 34:47 Okay. Speaker B 34:49 The Lone Star, Jim Cathcart 34:53 the national beer of the state of Texas. So from Austin, Texas. And this University of Texas shirt that I'm wearing. I just want to say. Speaker B 35:02 Yep. T shirt, I think bought at the Austin airport along with my Salt Lick brisket to go on my way back to lax. Jim Cathcart 35:10 There you go. Well, yep. We've had Salt Lake barbecue many times. Thank you for that. So, Michael, what's the next stage? Speaker C 35:23 So as you are, identify what to do and what's necessary to do to accomplish those goals or Accomplish that thing or be that person or be. To be able to perform that skill. And then it's repetition. It's repetition. And on the SWAT team we always used to talk about perfect practice. Yeah. You know, practice equals perfect performance. You know, we, we practice slow, we practice without shooting. You know, the best way to be a good shooter is to practice without shooting. You know, need to know how to manipulate your gun, how to, how to hold your gun, how to aim your gun, how to pull your trigger when there's not going to be an explosion, when there's not going to kick, when there's not going to be, you know, all of those things and be steady and, and learn the basics and repetition over and over and over and over and over. Everything is, is repetition over and over and over, I think. And then it becomes, as we mentioned earlier, the unskilled or rather the unconscious. Skilled unconscious. Jim Cathcart 36:17 Yeah. Your performance. I heard a performer one time, I was in Palm Springs and I was the keynote speaker. And before me are, on the same day as me, there was going to be a professional musician, a woman singer who was well known and popular at the time. I don't remember her name right now, but I was there in the ballroom when she was practicing and she did the full on performance. Like the room was full. She was not in there doing la la la la la la la la la la. You know, and she came on like we had just thunderously applauded her and she did her whole show and I just sat there in amazement. Wow. So that's what professionals do. And either she or someone else later said, you don't practice until you get it right. You keep practicing until you can't get it wrong. Speaker C 37:21 Absolutely. Jim Cathcart 37:22 Whoa. Speaker C 37:23 Absolutely. Jim Cathcart 37:24 And that's a huge gap. Yeah. But to practice until you get it right. Like I play songs until I get it right. Not like the record. But people say, yes, I know that song, I love that song. Do it, do it right. But I don't necessarily practice until I can't get it wrong. However, for my own mental development, every time I pick up the guitar, which is often, and I keep gesturing over here because it's on my wall, always handy. So every day I pick up the guitar and I play something that I haven't played in a long time. So I know four or five hundred songs that I can play without notes, but if I don't review them from time to time, especially the ones I haven't performed in a year or two, then I, you know, the muscle memory, those little dendritic Tissues kind of wisp away. There's a book called the Power of Habit by Charles Duhig. D U h, I g g and a book before it back in the 1970s called the Self Creation. No, it's called simply self creation by Dr. George Weinberg. He said the self creation principle is this. Every time you act, you strengthen the thinking that goes with that act. If you act afraid, if you act rude, if you act like an. If you act confidently, if you act caringly, you reinforce the thinking that goes with that action. So watch your actions. You can practice yourself into a good mindset, but you can't mind self yourself into good practice because you have to have the practice. You got to come at it from both directions to get to that intersection. And then Charles Duhig in his book, he was talking from a more clinical point of view about how habits are developed. And he says, you know, we've got neural pathways, dendritic tissue and neurons that are established from what we do. And those are our instincts, our habitual ways of living, breathing and interacting. Okay. And if we want a new pathway, we've got to force the first. We got to have a pattern interruption. That's a big phrase right there, pattern interrupt. If there is no pattern interrupt, the pattern continues. Right. So we got to interrupt the existing pattern long enough to choose a better one. But the better one's going to be awkward and difficult at first. And then we repeat it and repeat it and we're still awkward and difficult until it gets pretty easy and then it becomes instinctive and then it becomes the preferred pathway because the other one's still there. We could revert to it. It's our default. But if we keep following the new one, it'll just keep getting easier until it's the main road. So I think that pretty much describes what you have been describing from a different angle. Speaker C 40:23 I think so, yes, absolutely. And again, you're having to re. Retrain yourself. You have to do something that's new and to. And you have to remember that 5% of our mind is conscious. Something like that. And 90. Yeah, we got a lot of, we got a lot of unconscious pulling and tugging and pushing and, and habitual stuff Jim Cathcart 40:46 in the wrong direction in a lot of cases. Yeah, yeah. Speaker C 40:48 So these, these paradigms come up, you know, where your body or your subconscious like, well, we've never done it that way and it's not. And it's scary to do it that way and it's. And we don't know how to do it that way. And all of a sudden there's often times when you're making a positive, making an effort to take positive steps in a new direction. You know, the internal paradigms start to come up and rear, rear their ugly heads and go, no, you know, you're coming out of our, We've kept you in, in alignment in a safety place, you know, which is, means you're not growing, we're keeping you not growing because it's safe. But really so you have to notice what you're noticing, noticing notice when the stresses are coming up, the difficulties are coming up to make those positive changes so that you can re pattern, you know, those paradigms, repattern those thoughts and say, no, this is true. This is who I am. This is. Yeah, what do you know? And the other thing really important is self concept, self esteem, self worth, whatever the right self word is. We can't outperform what we believe we can perform. We can't. If I don't think I'm good enough to do whatever, I'm never going to be able to do it, you know, and it's not just about being a competent shot. But I, I practiced enough so that I always knew, I knew I shot. I practiced again going back to a sniper or a rifleman example. I wasn't always, I was not in the military before I became a cop. I was a college kid. I was an actor, a model and a college kid. And then I became a cop. And as a cop I thought, you know, I love this. I was an athlete in college. I would love to get on the SWAT team. I'm strong, I'm in shape, I can carry stuff. I, I learned to shoot. Now my dad taught me to shoot as a kid, but yeah, it was informal. Jim Cathcart 42:34 Me too. Speaker C 42:36 My gun handling skills in law enforcement. I learned him at SWAT school. I learned them in advanced SWAT school. I learned them at sniper school. I love advanced sniper school. You know, it developed. But I learned a new skill that I wasn't technically born with. Jim Cathcart 42:50 Yeah. Speaker C 42:50 Had never done before. At some point it was on me as our primary sniper. We had other snipers. I was, I was Sierra 1. I was the main guy. Jim Cathcart 42:59 You were the point of the spear. Speaker C 43:00 Yep, I was. And again, it depends on the action turns out to be where you are on. Oftentimes the guy in the back is now the point because the bad guy runs out the back, you know, so the point guy can be anywhere. But anyway, I had to get to the point where I was going to be the guy that was going to take the shot who was not in any danger myself, I was a hundred yards away. Ish. More or less. I was concealed. Nobody knew I was there. I was going to be reached out and touching somebody in a fatal way to save somebody else's life at a moment's notice in a situation. And I had to be capable and I had to believe that I was capable. I had to have the skill. I had to demonstrate to myself that I had the skills to pull it off. And I had to practice enough so that I, like you said, I practiced. So I never failed. I never. Jim Cathcart 43:55 Instincts. Yeah. Speaker C 43:56 And then I just kept it going. But I knew I was confident. I shot in windy conditions, I shot in the rain, I shot in the heat. If it was a horrible day, I went to the range. If it was a great day, I went to the range. If it was a, you know, I went to the range so that I could be exposed to those situations. So that. Because you never know when you're going to get the call. And I got called in the middle of the night, but I've deployed well over 100 times. I've not been in shootings all those times, but they're always deployments there always potential. It's always could happen. And you. I had to be in a place where I knew that if I was called upon to, to save this guy's life by taking out this guy who's right behind him. Jim Cathcart 44:36 Yeah. Speaker C 44:37 Show only a little bit of a body part that this guy was safe and this guy was you know, was not. And so, but, but it, you have to get to the point where, you know, you've got that skill. And again, as I, as I now at 60, starting my own company, doing similar things to stuff I've done for years and years and years in law enforcement, but doing it in a new way, all of a sudden I'm, I'm recognizing, wow, okay, what is my belief in my ability to be an entrepreneur? What is my belief in my ability to expand my own success level, my own expression of greatness? I can show where I've had the opportunity, the privilege to be great, quote, unquote, in moments in times and things. But life, you know, life is changing and I'm still growing, I'm still becoming, and I'm super excited about it, but I continually having to up my belief in myself, you know, and by the way, that's. Jim Cathcart 45:37 That's huge. Pardon me for cutting you off, but when I did a TED Talk back in 2013, they said, what are you going to talk about? I said, I'm going to talk about what nobody else ever gets to how to believe in yourself. So what do you mean? I said, well, everybody tells you you must, almost nobody tells you how to do it. You know, the first thing is believe in the people that believe in you. If you've got other people saying you've got this and you don't think you have, well, give them a little, little credibility in your mind. Say, okay, I can believe in them. Or believe in the system that you're following because it's been proven again and again and again by others. Or believe in the discipline, the practice that you've gone through and know that that's going to put you into the moment, that able to handle the moment or believe in the importance of the outcome. Forget about your own fears and focus on the importance of the outcome you're trying to produce. You know, there are a lot of factors, a lot of moving parts in believing in yourself, but it all starts with realizing where you're at. And if your feeling is, I'm not worthy, I'm not capable, I'm not ready, I'm not whatever, I'm. It's just the, the, the great I'm not. That's not true. That's your opinion based on limited information. And it, the limited information is all filtered through your own fears and background and, you know, emotional imprints and days when you weren't breastfed or something like that when you were an infant. You know, there's just so much accumulated stuff that we have to muddle through to get to a clear awareness of where we're at and what's coming next. And I love, you know, the way you've described this story because it really does apply to all of us. Mindset matters. Consulting is an excellent company name because it, it pretty much gets straight to the point. Look, folks, you can spend all year becoming an expert at transmission repair. You know, you can spend the next decade becoming the world's leading authority on transmission repair. Doesn't mean anybody's going to want to do business with you. Everybody might read your articles. The nobody's going to want to hang with you unless you've also become a professional who respects your colleagues, your co workers, cares about your customers, honors your craft, behaves according to a set of ethical standards, continues your education, learning even from people with less power and less experience than you, because everybody's got something that you hadn't seen or heard yet. And then you become what my company calls certified professional expert, which you, Mike, are one of the first 22 to receive that. And what we're certifying is not in that case, transmission expertise or law enforcement expertise, in your case, or acting expertise, but the expertise in those skills that transcend the verticals that would cause you, no matter what field you entered next, even if it was landscape design, you would quickly gravitate to the leadership level because people would say, I like the way you think. Oh, my gosh. You know, we never considered it from that angle. Nice comment. Hey, that question you asked a while ago opens up a whole thing that we weren't even thinking about. Thank you for that. And all of a sudden, Mike is a senior advisor in a field he's got no particular skill for. Right. So professional expertise is the kind of thing that I would like all of us to be always selling to others. And it starts with realizing that your own instincts, your natural instincts, don't always serve you well. In fact, sometimes they're your greatest adversary. And you can, in fact, retrain your instincts. You can actually become instinctively drip. Not driven, but stimulated in the proper direction as opposed to the improper or unhealthy direction. And that a hundred percent of that is controlled by going back to your word of the year, intentionality. I love that word. One quick comment or question for you. We've got eight minutes left. I wanted to have you describe what you described for me when you were just doing a casual, like running down a checklist of how much of your typical day as a patrolman was intentional, how many things were intentional. Can you run through that little checklist again? Speaker C 50:17 Stop me at eight minutes. Jim Cathcart 50:19 I'll stop you at seven. Speaker C 50:21 Okay, I'm just kidding. But everything, everything we did in law enforcement, everything I did, everything we did, everything I learned to do and I. And we taught our new recruits to do was with a purpose in mind or with intention. So my uniform, it was tailored. It wasn't just bought off the shelf. We go to the uniform, then you get it tailored so that it fits, it's not too loose. That's going to get caught on stuff when you're chasing somebody, going around corners, climbing over fences. It's tailored, it's taught, it's tight, it's snug. It's not to make me look muscular. It's just, it's to be safe. It's also to good uniform appearance commands respect. I wore boots. I wore boots instead of shoes because I was likely to get in a chase, in a foot pursuit, and I needed to protect my ankles and I needed. I intentionally wore Boots with so that I would have ankle support for jumping. I've jumped off balconies and roofs and fences and over fences and chasing, so that's important. I carried single handcuff keys in all four pockets so that in case I ever was taken hostage, I. I search people, multiple people a day with arrests. And I know how easy it is to miss things. And it's in somebody who's not a professional searcher like me would be very easy to miss. A little handcuff key tucked in the corner of one of my. One of my four pockets. I carried a backup gun in case something in case I lost my main gun or my primary gun or it became disabled for some reason or I was fighting to retain it. I had a backup gun in a strategic location that I could use for a single dedicated. Jim Cathcart 51:58 By the way, even the way you laced your boots, I remember you mentioning Speaker C 52:02 that I laced them. I tied that I double. I always double knotted. I could never afford at the wrong time to have my shoelaces, my boot laces become undone and to cause me to trip, to fall, or to not be able to perform at my highest capability. Double knotted everything. Whether anything that was tied was always well nodded, whether it was on my SWAT backpack or my boots or whatever. Go. Driving down the car, I drove with my windows. I drove it to back windows halfway down and the front windows down a few inches so that I still had some type of a bullet deflection protection with the windows. But it was down enough that I could hear people calling for help or calling a warning to be careful. I always, when you check your car, you make sure all your equipment works properly so that it's functioning. You don't want to turn it to Jim Cathcart 52:54 shop like they do on a TV show. Speaker C 52:57 We call that a shop. Yeah. On some level, police work is very, very different than tv and most cops can't work shots, but shows that, yeah, shop. You search the car to make sure it's clean, no prior. You know, I just get this, the car or the shop from the guy who had it the shift before. So he or may, he or she may or may not have carefully searched the car to make sure there's no drugs, no weapons. I want to make sure there's no weapons left in the back that my new arrestee can now use against me. And I also want to make sure there's no drugs or paraphernalia in the back someplace that I'm going to find and then put on him or her that doesn't belong to him. Or her. So you, the car, you make sure it works properly. But you drive down the street, you're aware of your surroundings. When I, when you go to a call, you're always suspecting, okay, I'm going to it or I'm going to a domestic violence call. And, but you, but you always have to go. It's not a domestic violence call. It's an ambush, it's something, it's a whatever. So you're prepared. You're prepared for it to be something else. Even though you're going with an intention, for one thing, you park down the street out of sight, so that if there's a sniper waiting there, again, it's all about survival. Because all over the country, cops are getting killed. Sitting at restaurants are getting killed, going to calls, getting killed, driving down the street, they're getting killed. Not to be afraid. I didn't live my life in fear. I lived my life prepared. And I did with what I did. I did what I did with the plan. And so you go down the street, you park away from the, the location, whatever it is, or you park, if it's a place where there's lots of apartment buildings, you park on the next street and you, where you can't even be seen, you're on the wrong street. But you walk between the apartment buildings and you're right there within 75 yards. You know, it's easy. So you're intentional about where you park. When I. Especially at night. But even during the day, you park and you close the doors quietly. It's just one click. The door is locked, but it so that way, you know, they don't hear your parking and closing your doors and getting out. I walk up the parkway where the trees are not on the sidewalk. You can look down the sidewalk. You can be in the parkway and look down the sidewalk and see anybody walking for two or three blocks at night. And so you walk up the parkway so you're not noticeable, so you're not going to be. You want to see them before they see you. And you want to get there and listen, is she getting beat? Is he getting beat or is nobody getting beat? What's it sound like? What's the evidence that I get to articulate later in my report which is going to justify why did I kick the door or why did I not kick the door? Yeah, Jim Cathcart 55:33 this is mind blowing. Just the number of details. But when you think about it as an outsider, of course, he didn't have to do all these things at once. He learned each stage of it along the way. And he rode with another officer who double checked him on everything and corrected him until he got to the point where he was on top of his game. And the same thing, the companies that don't do particularly well over time almost always have minimal training and minimal supervisory feedback. They think, well, you know, I correct my people when they're wrong. I don't give them praise when they do right, well, I don't want to work for them because even though I may be getting feedback I need, I'm not getting feedback I desperately want. And that is, Jim, that's the way to do it. Good job. That's all I need. I don't need you to say, oh, there's a cute little thing. And he. Great. You know, I don't know. I don't need a award or ribbon or a trophy. I just need to know this is working and that's good. Or you might want to rethink that because that's going to lead you in trouble. Yes, Mike. Speaker C 56:43 One of the most important, one of the most valuable sayings, that's a nugget for everybody. This was a nugget for me from Gordon Graham. No relation, even though I'm Michael Graham. Gordon Graham was his California Highway Patrol sergeant when I first heard him speaking and teaching. He eventually became a commander, retired, and now does a lot of really cool stuff with police department policy all over the country and probably around the world. But he said, in the line of risk management, which is what we all do in our lives is manage risk. If it's predictable, it's preventable. And so every decision I make. Jim Cathcart 57:21 Let's highlight that. Just a second. Say it again, please. Speaker C 57:25 If it's predictable, it's preventable. Jim Cathcart 57:28 There you go. That's a keeper. Speaker C 57:30 Yeah, Yeah. Jim Cathcart 57:31 I don't. Speaker C 57:32 Where I put my coffee cup when I have a dog in the room with a wagging tail. I is. It's. It's predictable. He's going to be excited. He's gonna. He's gonna knock it over. It's gonna get all over my. Whatever. I put it in a place where he can't get it. I put. I do what I do. So now I live life trying to predict the outcome, or I look at what's predictable about the street I'm going to take. The way I'm going to drive to the market, how I'm going to enter the bank, how quickly I'm going to enter the bank. Off, dude, I'm retired. I'm always off duty. Doesn't mean I'm not. I'm not armed, but it means I'm off duty. But am I just going to run into something or am I going to actually do like I did as a cop? And I'm going to pull up, going to take a look, I'm going to be aware, and then I'm going to go into the restaurant, I'm going to go into the bank, I'm going to go into the cleaners, I'm going to go into the, into the barbershop or whatever and not put myself in a situation, you know, where I could, where I could get hurt. Jim Cathcart 58:30 Now here's where, where people a lot of times get that message wrong. They say, yeah, that, that's great and wonderful. Good for him. He's amazing. I'm. But I'm so far from him. I don't want to have to make my life be that much work. The point of all this is the more. The higher the percentage of your life that is intentional, the less the percentage of your life has to feel like work. When you're intentional about more things, you can relax and be natural in more situations. When you're intentional about less, there are always more surprises, more emergencies, more problems, more, oh, my gosh, if only I thought we would have brought X and we could go onto the beach now. Now we got to go back or go. Go buy something. Intentionality, you know. Where are you going? I don't know. We're just going out for the day. You're going to go to the pool? No, but there's a swimming hole down there I wanted to check out. Well, if you get there, you're going to go in. I don't know. Well, throw the, Throw your trunks in the car. Okay. That's, that's all you know. I mean, the more things we're ready for, the fewer things we're surprised, alarmed, or defeated by. Right. Let me give Pete a chance for a closing question or comment, and then we'll have to wrap all this together. And Michael, if you've got a closing word for us, that's certainly encouraged. Speaker C 60:00 Pete. Speaker B 60:01 Ooh, I guess. Loved it, Mike. Amazing. Just to hear how intentional you are in terms of what you've accomplished, what you're looking to do. You know, this, I guess on, on my end here, you had talked about earlier about finding a passion. Right. And doing that. How should someone deal with something once they're. They've dived into something and then realize, you know what? This isn't my passion? Like, do you just quit cold on that? Do you Assess it and like, okay, do I, you know, I'm, Do I have a plan? How do I, you know, extricate myself out of this? The best thing, like. Or do you just, like, that's not it. Next. And just go on the next thing. Because sometimes people hang on to things too long. Love to get any thoughts both from Jim and Mike on that. Jim Cathcart 60:50 Thank you. Let me get mine out of the way quickly. Think like a tree. Do not uproot yourself. Branch out until you grow new, stronger roots over there. Then you can ship to that. So, you know, dabble and build a little temporary base that you could shift to when the time is right. Speaker C 61:11 Mike, great point. I think it depends on. On what? Yes, that's a great point. And then additionally, I think it depends on the consequence of whatever that decision that you started in on pursuing. If it's a job and now it's your source of income that your family and you need, you'll probably make that change slower because you still need to have income. And if you, if you quit a cold turkey and you now you no longer have money, there's a consequence of, of debt, there's a consequence of, of all of that. But if it's just a choice about a new passion I wanted to pursue and there was no consequence of a cold turkey quit, you know, then you, now you reassess. What do I like about. Why did I think I wanted to do that? And is there something similar? Was that the right direction but the wrong thing? Or what do I don't like about it? And, you know, let's switch to something that really floats my boat in a different direction. But I like what Jim said because sometimes the consequence is so great that you, you really, you can't make the cold turkey change. And then other times, if it's as simple as if it's with no consequence, then. Jim Cathcart 62:17 Yeah, well, bring us in. I think to your point on that Speaker B 62:21 there's trade offs, right? And you just have to assess the trade off. There's no perfect answer for anything. Jim Cathcart 62:26 Well, the universal answer, Pete, and you can use this as your own, no matter what the question the answer is it depends. No, wait a minute. You know, if I ask you, what's your name? It depends. Are you with the irs then? My name's Mike Graham. Oh, you're with Publishers Clearinghouse. I'm Jim Cathcart. Yes, you found me. Speaker B 62:50 Yes. Speaker C 62:52 You know, life is constantly changing. We're constantly changing. You know, I've had a bunch of, in my, in my professional life as an adult. After turning 21, I've had four, at least four careers. Four or five careers. I'm constantly constant and one was for nearly 30 years. So sometimes it's a long time, sometimes it's shorter. But we're constantly changing. Life is changing and there's new opportunities. I like to say for myself, I like, I'm careful about my self talk now. I don't like to say I can't do that. I'm not good at that. Those are, those are limiting beliefs. I say up until now I've not demonstrated that I can do that or up until now, whatever. And now I'm moving forward. Jim Cathcart 63:31 Which is the front end of yet. Speaker C 63:33 Yeah, correct. Just like yet. It made me, made me think of that when you said yet. I like the acronym kiss. Keep it simple, silly. So when I'm learning new things, yeah, I keep it short and simple. I break it down into the simple steps and I, you know, that's. How do I do this new big thing? I don't know. But what's the little simple steps you can do at the beginning? Keep it simple and it increases. Be intentional. Be prepared. I love to be prepared. That goes to my boy scout days. But I, I always carry water in my car. I always have some, you know, protein power bars in there or something. I mean I'm always prepared for, I live in, we live in California. There's going to be an earthquake. There's going to be another earthquake and at some point I'm going to be on a road that's not going to be straight anymore and I'm going to be sitting there. Am I prepared with water? Because I need water. As a human being, as, and as an athlete, I'm always thirsty and I need food or I get hangry. And so I know I always have something that I can put in my car so that I don't get angry from hunger. If it's predictable, it's preventable. And I think the best way to, to get is to give first. You know, you can't, you can't fill a full glass. You got to empty the glass so that you can fill it up so as the more you give, the more you get. The more you give, the more you get. It's, it's the waves of the ocean. Jim Cathcart 64:53 Pay it forward. I love it. You know, and we can go all the way back. Rewind all the way to the beginning of our discussion today. You said something that, that I think everyone needs to remember that that's the starting point. First, be grateful for what you have be grateful for where you are. Gratitude is an attitude of openness. It's, it's, it's a, it's, it's an attitude of humility. It's an attitude of hope, not hope. And like, oh, I hope we don't get stuck in traffic. That's hoping against. It's hope in the sense of, hey, there's a light, there's hope. You know, we see, we see a new way. And I'm inspired. Seriously, Mike, this was super, super good today. And I think we've, we've explored some, some pure value that a lot of people are going to be talking about. Any closing comment, Pete? Speaker B 65:49 No, it was a great time, gentlemen. Thank you. Always, you know. Speaker C 65:53 Yeah. Speaker B 65:54 From everybody. Jim Cathcart 65:56 All right. And Mike, thank you so much. Speaker C 65:59 You're welcome. Thank you. Jim Cathcart 66:00 Mindset Matters Consulting. How do they reach you? What's, what's the email to reach you? Speaker C 66:05 You know, the website I've mean with? I've been meeting with my website designer, so that's not up and running yet, but I do have an email associated with it. It's michael@mindsetmattersconsulting.com. Jim Cathcart 66:18 there you go. Speaker C 66:19 Otherwise, I guess that should we leave it there or, or. Jim Cathcart 66:23 Yeah, yeah. Or send Jim Cathcart a note and say, hey, how do I reach Michael? There you go. All right. Speaker C 66:29 Mgram.training gmail.com is the other one. Jim Cathcart 66:32 There you go. ERA H I'll@mindsetmattersconsulting.com super good. Well, thank you both and, and those of you tuning in later, thank you for, for paying attention to Wisdom Parlor. Because we are intelligent people talking about interesting things in an open environment of discussing and telling what is true. Thank you for joining us today in the Wisdom Parlor, a thoughtful discussion of important ideas among people who are committed to succeeding in life. If you are committed to making more success happen in your own life, go right now to my website, free.cathcart.com and download my free ebook and then watch the video. If you decide that you'd like my assistance in helping grow yourself success, then come with me and let's discover how much more successful you can be.